Heavy Strategy > Ep. 65 | February 13, 2024 Sponsored
HS065: Calculating the Value of Telco AIOps (Sponsored)
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Greg
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Johna Till
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AI and automation are hot topics in telco, but not all projects are created equal in terms of the bottom-line value. We dive into how to calculate total value, and discuss why the area of assurance looks set to generate the most value. We provide key questions to ask when considering what AIOps to add to your telco workflow, especially in regards to ROI. Our guest today is Charlotte Patrick, an industry analyst with Vitria Technologies.
Episode Guest
Charlotte Patrick | Industry Analyst, Vitria Technologies
Charlotte is an independent industry analyst covering the use of artificial intelligence, automation, and analytics by telecom companies. Her areas of interest are the uptake and efficacy of these technologies and the resulting financial benefit. She brings 13 years of experience as an analyst at Gartner, 5 years as an independent analyst, and 10 years of practical experience in AT&T, COLT and Telefonica O2 – with a mix of strategic, marketing and financial skill sets.
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Vitria Technologies, Inc.
Vitria’s VIA AIOps delivers the full-stack observability capabilities needed to transform operations and markedly lower costs. Working across applications, networks, and dedicated or hybrid in-house and cloud infrastructure, VIA accelerates the resolution of service-impacting events through process automation and substitutes intelligent automation for high levels of human expertise in the event monitoring and incident management process. VIA’s real-time analytics, artificial intelligence, and machine learning deliver a superior customer experience through augmented intelligence that supports a leaner, more efficient, and effective operational staff.
Episode Transcript
This episode was transcribed by AI and lightly formatted. We make these transcripts available to help with content accessibility and searchability but we can’t guarantee accuracy. There are likely to be errors and inaccuracies in the transcription.
Greg Ferro (00:00:00) – Welcome to Heavy Strategy. In today’s sponsored show, we’re talking AIOps and service assurance with Vitria. Now, one way to look at artificial intelligence in the telco infrastructure and any infrastructure price generally is to say that, first of all, we had manual operation, artisanal handcrafted configurations, and then we moved up to automation of elements. We started to use Python scripts and Ansible and various tools like that to automate a device. And then we moved on to saying actually what we need is to automate all things, a line of things. And so this sort of led to what I call orchestration. I am orchestrating multiple automations to build a service delivery, to build a service end to end. And the actions that we perform when we’re doing this, though, were deterministic. That is, a human decides what action to take. And the logical question here is, does this leave room for improvement? And of course, in technology, the answer is yes. There’s always room for improvement. I’m Greg Ferro and you can be my internet friend on LinkedIn or over on Twitter if you like.
Greg Ferro (00:01:00) – Johna Till Johnson would love to connect you with you on her company’s website. She’s joining me today, and our guest is Charlotte Patrick, and she is working with Vitria Technologies. She’s an independent industry analyst covering the use of artificial intelligence in the telco space. Thanks very much for joining us, Charlotte. Let’s get straight into the first question. Looking across at the telco industry, where is the majority of intelligence automation being added to the infrastructure today?
Charlotte Patrick (00:01:22) – So when you look across a telco, basically you end up with sort of buckets of questions that problems need to be answered and the resolutions to them. And so where you see most things happening today are in large complex sets of data where you’ve got the ability to diagnose problems and predict and prescribe actions. You’ve then got a bunch of use cases really around automations. Yeah. So this is about, you know, repetitive tasks and large teams and things that need putting in there. And then you have kind of a couple of sets of different questions you usually see.
Charlotte Patrick (00:01:59) – You either see personalized action. Where does the telco need to do something personalized for its customers. And then you get kind of classic planning problems as well. There’s sort of another version of AI automation. And then you’ve got a selection of sort of standalone AI opportunities.
Greg Ferro (00:02:18) – You’re seeing this like three different parts there. There’s an operational aspect. How do I operate my telco infrastructure more efficiently? I can use AIOps to automate regular tasks, but I think I heard you say you can also use AI to accelerate the planning tasks as well. Do I need new services? How do I get… is that right?
Charlotte Patrick (00:02:35) – Yeah. So you typically get there either optimization tasks basically, so how do I make something behave in its optimum fashion. Or it could be something like slightly more kind of design leg like you’re trying to trying to plan a network and things. And that’s so you have several options. And again you’re looking to find the best one out of that. Yeah.
Johna Till Johnson (00:02:55) – So Charlotte, just um, connect the dots for some of our listeners here.
Johna Till Johnson (00:03:00) – It sounds, you know, you talked a lot about optimization. How does this translate into bottom line value?
Charlotte Patrick (00:03:06) – I keep a big spreadsheet and on my spreadsheet I look for an average telco. So we go something along the lines of a $16 billion telco. So that’s not Verizon. It’s more like a European telco. And it kind of…
Johna Till Johnson (00:03:19) – kind of averages out or someone like that.
Charlotte Patrick (00:03:21) – Yeah, yeah. And I add up that there is an estimated $1.2 billion of value that’s on a revenue of 16 billion. And that is bottom line uplift. So I’m talking about CapEx and OpEx decreases or revenue increases. And that’s if I start all of my projects kind of right now. And that’s what I will see each year for say, the next five years.
Johna Till Johnson (00:03:42) – So the value is roughly… And if I did my math correctly, roughly about 10% improvement, could you kind of do one double click deeper and talk about where some of that improvement comes from?
Charlotte Patrick (00:03:53) – Yeah, absolutely. So obviously the majority of it is the network.
Charlotte Patrick (00:03:56) – And what you might describe as kind of roughly the network management space. So automations in the network, you know, reduces staff costs and optimizes expensive equipment, that type of thing. There’s then a nice little bucket labeled assurance. So you’ve got more automations ability to see up and up and down the stack and across domains. And I see good value there. And then you tend to go into places where either something like network planning, where you’ve got large CapEx and OpEx decreases potentially for undertaking, you know, making something more optimized. And then also the big teams. So field services, order management, those type of things, and perhaps into the contact center as well. There’s always some decent value.
Greg Ferro (00:04:40) – So when you’re talking about AIOps, you’re not just talking about operating the network, you’re actually talking about doing integrations with a whole range of tools that exist inside of a telco. Like you’re reaching into the OSS and the BSS, you’re looking at reaching into the customer databases, and then you’re looking at the networks to be able to bring it into a unified
Greg Ferro (00:04:59) – Platform that uses artificial intelligence to tell you what’s happening. So, you know, if network performance is bad, which customers are being impacted, type of thing.
Charlotte Patrick (00:05:06) – Absolutely. So my spreadsheet says so first of all, I break down the telco into different processes. And that could be any process. I’m going into HR or going into security all over the place and saying, so where could analytics or AI or automation have some value? What could it do? And then I’m trying to say, so what are the drivers of revenue there or CapEx/OpEx decreases. So this is a really, really broad piece of work that I’ve done.
Johna Till Johnson (00:05:32) – Interesting. So I want to circle back on something and hopefully it’s not too soon in the conversation to ask. But I know you sort of distinct… you differentiate between assurance as something that’s distinct from resilience, automation, intelligence, etc. and maybe you could just define for our listeners what you mean by assurance.
Charlotte Patrick (00:05:52) – Oh yeah. So I take assurance into a sort of number of different categories and typically a sort of FM, PM, the old things that we’ve been doing for a long time for on the resource side, things like traffic analysis.
Charlotte Patrick (00:06:06) – And then also I have the service assurance separately. So I’ll have PM and FM there, along with kind of proactive fault management and kind of newer things. And then I’ve also got a kind of customer centric assurance, things like managing SLAs and tracking individual customers. And I have some little additional pieces there around making sure that enterprises or partners also have the ability to see assurance data as well. So it’s quite, quite a broad area.
Johna Till Johnson (00:06:35) – Does assurance actually help raise an SLA to the level of an XLA? So the customer experience level.
Charlotte Patrick (00:06:42) – Well, theoretically with some closed loop and some more dynamic SLA management? Yes, I think it’s still a work in progress and it’s allied to, you know, how much the telcos are doing with their service, their 5G services. Are they actually selling anything therefore… Oh gosh, some. Now we need some better sorts of SLAs. So it is work in progress along with other things, you know, in that area like creating slices that that are easier to assure and, you know, that kind of thing.
Charlotte Patrick (00:07:13) – So it’s in development.
Greg Ferro (00:07:16) – So the sort of person that would be, should be listening to this or would initiate this is much sounds to me it’s going to be not so much engineering lead but much more business lead. Or am I misunderstanding.
Charlotte Patrick (00:07:26) – Well, so I come from a business background and my kind of view is that if you don’t know where the financial value is, then you’re going to struggle to, you know, to really make decisions because there is so much that can be done and so many vendors, so much, you know, talk in the market about where AI and automation is, is really going to work. So, yeah, I do take it from quite a top level view and then, but actually then go down quite deep because what I discover is that you can’t do, you know, you can’t talk about the value of assurance if you don’t really know what’s going to be done and what’s feasible.
Greg Ferro (00:07:58) – Yeah. I guess like when we talk about tools like this, there’s always two ways that you can approach it.
Greg Ferro (00:08:02) – One is a bottom up where the engineering team starts deploying and focusing on short term wins. And another way to do it is say this is a whole of company approach and it starts from the top down and you focus on things like automating billing or operations or designing, you know, something like that. Could you take something like the Vitria product suite and start from the bottom up and or from the top down or either or or both?
Charlotte Patrick (00:08:26) – I mean. I think just generally everybody obviously you’re going to knock out your quick wins first and you just hope well, if you haven’t spent a lot of time calculating the value, you just hope that the things that your vendor promised you are going to become, you know, reality, reality on your bottom line. And then I think what people are finding and I hope I’m answering the question, but I’ve just done a really interesting piece looking at assurance and talking to the vendors who are doing this. And they say, well, what happens is everybody does has done a bunch of stuff and then you have to what do you do now? And the answer is…
Charlotte Patrick (00:09:01) – You, you go to where you’ve got things and you say you look upstream and downstream and say, what are the next things that you need to do? But then also, as you were saying, you have to overlay, you know, if you want to get to a, I don’t know, a self-healing network, whatever that might mean. You know, you’ve well…
Greg Ferro (00:09:17) – I guess I’m more thinking in terms of service assurance. Right. So the goal here is always to reach for service assurance. And Vitria is very much focused on service assurance as.. what it delivers to customers. But the challenge there is that the service might run across 50 different technologies, you know, 30 different business units. And you know what, all the different areas and quite often the best way to start this is to say I’m going to define my service as this or some subset of functionality and then start building out. And it’s like a, like an onion you build from the center and you add the layers on and you grow out.
Greg Ferro (00:09:54) – You use your integrations with your databases. You use your integrations with the net performance system. You maybe you’re plugging into some digital experience management system, and you want to feed that data into your AIOps and to say, uh, I’ve got a, you know, if there’s a service problem on a network, I need my ops to know about it, and the helpdesk should know, but then I need a tool to help helpdesk say which customers are impacted. Those are the things that we don’t have today, but we can actually bring them on piece by piece, I think. And that’s where I think the value is for a lot of companies, because big things don’t… well, the lesson we know from working with companies like Oracle and SAP is big projects fail more often than they succeed. Yeah, well.
Johna Till Johnson (00:10:33) – And I jump in on that as well and say what I heard you saying there, Charlotte was, it’s great to have all this information, but unless you close that loop and do something with it and then continue the process and see whether what you did actually improve things, your information is useless.
Johna Till Johnson (00:10:48) – At some point you have to put it into action, and that piece still requires human intervention.
Charlotte Patrick (00:10:54) – Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, thinking about this, of course there is thinking about the projects that are happening today and most prevalent and whether and how exactly that fits into the total picture. I mean, I think, um, uh, the part of it is on, on the problem resolution side. So this sort of automated root cause analysis, the first place that you go to with some AI and that’s been going on for the last 3 or 4 years, I suppose. And then, um, of course, it’s complicated by the introduction of new domains and 5G SA and so forth. Um, when you have to change the way completely that you assure things and the data comes from a different place. So you’ve got both… You’ve got both, um, a rolling introduction of more AI, more automation, plus all the changes that are going on underneath…
Greg Ferro (00:11:50) – People are moving up and around and into 5G and then trying to go to 5G. There’s so much happening… and at the building block level, the APIs and everything that’s defined in these is very gray at this point. So when you’re building a whole business system or an end to end service assurance process, it is very daunting. And potentially until you’re using artificial intelligence, it may not even be practical. Let me ask a weird question. I want to ask a bit of an odd question. So one of the things that we have is what do customers object to? Like if we go out and talk to them about AIOps? And I’m sure you’re talking to lots of telcos about this, do they ever come back to you and say no or that’s silly or that’s a crazy idea? Do you get objections and pushback around AIOps, and if so, what are they?
Charlotte Patrick (00:12:34) – I think it has come on leaps and bounds. Usually there is… you know, we’ve got to build it first before we assure it.
Charlotte Patrick (00:12:42) – And so you’re waiting for stuff to happen on the deployment side in order to do that. And then there are a series of topics which go up and down in interest. So for example, now and some of the newer capabilities and theories about how best to capture assurance data and use it, they seem to go up and down. Um, and it depends on I don’t know… It’s slightly depends on how it depends on what they need immediately, you know, and if if something like energy is tied to services and services aren’t, you know, quite as hot as just getting something that will look across domains so that we can see what the major problems are then then they do go up and down. So I would say not a no, but certainly variable enthusiasms.
Greg Ferro (00:13:28) – I was thinking this is, you know, adding AIOps could potentially be a big and there’s a certain weariness, I think, in the telco industry at the moment about doing more like we’ve had that major 5G push, the push to move to 5G.
Greg Ferro (00:13:42) – And if you’re in the fixed line space, you’ve moved up to DWDM, you’re clocking up from, you know, 100 gig to 400 gig to 800 gig. You’re moving away from DWDM with IP edge to integrated IP. There’s so much happening in the telco space that adding this on top of could be seen as something that’s a step too far.
Johna Till Johnson (00:14:01) – Well, and that’s why I was kind of jumping in and asking the questions about how to extract the value that you talked about. Charlotte, you actually need humans to make changes to their processes, to think more broadly and basically take something that they probably had gotten to the point where it was pretty effective as a process and pretty error free, because telcos are usually extremely risk averse, and they don’t want to introduce anything that might add errors and mistakes and saying, oh gosh, you know, now you have to go change your process because you have all this insight and information that you didn’t previously have. And I can see that being a bit of a barrier, I think, Greg, you talked about the weariness, but I think there’s also the legit fear of risk, because doing something differently always adds the risk that you might crash the system inadvertently.
Charlotte Patrick (00:14:47) – I probably come back on that and say, actually, of all the areas that I’ve been tracking, actually assurance has suddenly got a massive boost because the data that is collected is useful in so many of the closed loops… There is no way we’re doing an intent based network or automation of planning or some of the orchestrations without a really good knowledge of, you know, when something happened, how that performed and whether that was the right thing to do. So there’s a sudden, for me, a sudden renaissance of interest, actually, in assurance and a sort of, you know, how can we get hold of the data, how can it be just in a standard format, etc., etc.?
Johna Till Johnson (00:15:26) – You said sudden twice. Is there any, uh, precipitating factor in, in your view that kind of drives this, this interest?
Charlotte Patrick (00:15:34) – I think for me, two things. Number one, people starting to talk about end to end service orchestration. And I know it’s been going on for a bit, but it feels to me like it’s just sort of ramping up a little now because some of the first bits are done and there’s more happening, more end to end stuff.
Charlotte Patrick (00:15:52) – And then also intent based networks. I mean, we are some distance from them. But I was speaking with TM Forum yesterday about where they are. And you know, there are some intent based bits and pieces out there and that all needs assurance data at some point to make it work.
Johna Till Johnson (00:16:07) – Yeah. So it sounds like this is, this is, uh, an idea whose time has come largely because people have been teased with some of the new capabilities that they might get, and now suddenly they’ve got the data that allows them to actually take advantage of these tools.
Greg Ferro (00:16:23) – I guess one area that I’m thinking of is that telcos often talk about a skill shortage. We’ve had a real problem where they’re looking for a certain type of person or a certain type of capability. Do you think AIOps, from a business point of view, is going to address the need for… reduce the need for specialist skills, or reduce the need for experts? And maybe or does it, you know, are these systems expert systems or expert replacement systems in that sense.
Charlotte Patrick (00:16:45) – Yes, where assurance can allow either simple or complex things to be fixed without too much intervention, that’s going to take down NOC and SOC staff. And then I guess also as that data helps with, you know, getting the trouble ticket traffic tickets and the network service desk kind of able to do what they need to do quicker and things. Yes, I there is a place there for cost savings and on headcount.
Greg Ferro (00:17:11) – Yeah, yeah. I think for me what I see with, you know, using tools like Vitria AIOps to do the service assurance is that a lot of your first line simplifies. So where your first line would often have to do a data gathering to find out what you know, the customer brings in and says, my service is broken. Well, what is the customer service and how many elements are in that path, and what is it about, you know, where are the parts of, you know, there’s so much of that that’s quite a to be able to comprehend. The end to end system is actually quite a difficult, quite a difficult thing to comprehend.
Greg Ferro (00:17:42) – But if you have a system like, you know, an AIOps, it’s doing service assurance, it can pop up and say, here’s all the elements in this customer service that you could be looking at and potentially even go further. It can start to attach into the network performance monitoring platform or the streaming data, the telemetry that’s coming off those systems, or look at application performance data that sometimes, if you’ve got all of this enabled in your AIOps, is that the sort of do you agree with that perspective?
Charlotte Patrick (00:18:06) – Absolutely. I mean, speaking with Vitria and and it’s you know, some of the stuff is not really that it sounds easy. It sounds easy to see things across domain and it sounds easy to do the root cause analysis, but it isn’t. And anything that AIOps can do is a massive benefit, you know, to solving problems.
Greg Ferro (00:18:28) – You still end up with your level three engineers. You probably don’t reduce those, but you do reduce, you know that down at the lower levels.
Greg Ferro (00:18:36) – And probably more importantly, I think AIOps might hopefully lead to a better customer service. Like, you know, if there’s a problem, you get to fixing it faster or potentially even before they know there’s a problem.
Charlotte Patrick (00:18:47) – Yeah, yeah. It occurs to me, you know, okay, so we’re supposed to have this dark knock and things. But if from a financial point of view you look at it, whether it’s worth, you know, your level three don’t know how many you have, 10 or 20 of them. Um, they’re not a massive expense compared to some of the other things that you could be doing. So potentially, you know, it’s still okay to have some things that recquire a human ongoing. And it probably makes sense to do so.
Johna Till Johnson (00:19:12) – So I want to kind of pivot a little bit. We’ve talked a lot about the benefits that these tools can bring. What kinds of questions should telcos be asking themselves, you know, somebody who’s listening to this going, oh my gosh, you’re absolutely right.
Johna Till Johnson (00:19:26) – I really need to be deploying these tools. What are some of the questions they should be asking themselves when looking to create value from automation and intelligence in the area of insurance? Yeah.
Charlotte Patrick (00:19:36) – So I guess the first thing would be still is that observability. Do I have what I need going forward? Can I see the customers either individually or in groups, and do I have it across old and new domains? Are there any holes that occur. So the newer assurance systems usually have all the cloud and edge capabilities in there. Or you can. Or you can purchase them. But some of the older solutions probably aren’t in there. So that is… it’s important to consider observability. I would then also talk about maximizing efficiency savings. Probably. How can assurance really help create a good customer experience on a budget? And that is a much broader question obviously, but a really important one, cause there is always this push between saving money and and getting new revenues. And, and at the moment, as far as I can see, there’s a lot of concentration on new revenues and how to generate those and how to support those.
Charlotte Patrick (00:20:35) – But, um, at the moment, I do think there’s still room to be had in efficiencies and savings, and that should be something else that people are looking at.
Greg Ferro (00:20:44) – Let’s look a little bit into the future because the AIOps industry an evolving, you know, changing thing. AI is in practical terms, AI is less than a year old in some ways. If you look at it in the consumer market, obviously AI’s been around for longer in the telco market. Where do you think… is the new things that are going to come? Let’s look it forward. If you’re Vitria and you’re looking to customers are looking to deploy Vitria in their infrastructure. What are the new things that are going to be coming down the pipeline?
Charlotte Patrick (00:21:11) – I feel the urge never to mention Gen AI because it is such… It’s so over, over spoken at the moment, but I do see a few use cases for it that look good digital assistant type capabilities, the ability to do knowledge management type things inside of some of the inventories in the catalogs.
Charlotte Patrick (00:21:31) – That’s good. Um, question mark, about whether it’s really the right tool to be doing, um, anomaly detection and other kind of classic AI or ML problems that you see in networks. I have questions about that. And then I’m very excited about generative and multi-agent systems at the moment and how those could be generative. But that’s… I probably, I’m way off in the future there. Um, so coming back to, you know, where can it be used today? I think there’s still a lot of places to go around the root cause analysis. Actually, I think, um, it is sometimes used, but there are other things that could be done. There is need to start to use machine learning where you’ve got a lot of data, like for example, and you’re bringing into assurance or started bringing cloud resources and VNFs for PM and FM. I think there’s stuff to be done there. And then of course, if we’re talking RAN assurance, the RAN as a whole extra layer of complexity sometimes.
Charlotte Patrick (00:22:26) – And there are some interesting uses for machine learning and assurance there.
Greg Ferro (00:22:30) – Yeah, this is where I get into my question. And like you can put AI on top of the RAN and get a lot of value, especially about spectrum management and fault detection. And you know, in the case of interference, you can really start to, you know, change the way you understand what’s happening, POP by POP at the edge of the network. But I think the challenge is that the RAN has to be combined with what’s happening in the backbone and then what’s happening across the core. And also how do you monitor all of that to say, oh, your customers are connected at the 5G POP, but there’s a fixed line at the other end. It’s the last mile fixed line that’s got a problem. For example, you know, or how do I optimize my my 5G POPs and my spectrum allocation across those pops so that I can spend less, especially at the moment they’re talking about renting spectrum allocation between telcos and things like that.
Greg Ferro (00:23:21) – I think AI and automation could be really valuable there.
Speaker 4 (00:23:24) – Yeah, absolutely.
Charlotte Patrick (00:23:25) – Super, super difficult problems. And where especially you know, oh there’s there’s a whole range of things one could go into. But um, so first of all, it’s just, you know, single pane of glass and just, um, dragging all of those things in. But then, um, you start to get conflict management needed as well. And things, especially when you start to talk about, you know, assurance and SLA management on, you know, of services and so forth. So, um, there is a range of things and that’s, you know, that’s where the AIOps platform begins to, you know, come into its own is when you’ve got when you when you’ve got a single, you need a single pane of glass. Because how, how, you know, how are you going to do it otherwise.
Greg Ferro (00:24:03) – I think, I think the challenge here is for me, AIOps is about starting somewhere and learning.
Greg Ferro (00:24:08) – I don’t think you want to go with the, you know, the big bang approach and say we’re AIOps-ing the whole the whole telco. You have to find a place. And that’s I think it’s much more of an evolutionary approach. And the way I look at Vitria is they have all of these integrations. You don’t have to do them all at once. You can start and build them up over time. And I think that’s a much more realistic way of doing things that there’s been so much change. Putting this on top of the workload might be a bit of a problem, but I think probably the place to start is in assurance. Ah, my service is working. How do I look at the data that I’ve already got out there and say, my team is working, my RANs are working, my POPs are working.
Johna Till Johnson (00:24:45) – Yeah, I would, I would take that all the way back to what Charlotte said earlier, which is start with observability. What can you see? How can you put these end to end pieces together so you can see what’s going on? And then the next question you can ask yourself is what can I do about this? Wherecan I optimize… what are my opportunities for improvement.
Charlotte Patrick (00:25:03) – Yeah. And particularly with an eye to services it seems to be you know to some extent the network observability is becoming something that you know networks are becoming more reliable because there are other automations that are doing things. So although there’s still a horrid amount of stuff that needs to be done, um, I think the, you know, the move is definitely towards services. And how is the user experiencing things?
Greg Ferro (00:25:29) – Well, unfortunately that’s all the time that we’ve got for today. Thanks very much to Vitria for sponsoring today’s show and taking the time to join us and to talk about AIOps. It’s not often we get to talk about AI in a telco environment, so it’s interesting to think of things from a big perspective. Thanks very much for joining us today, Charlotte. It’s been a pleasure to have you on and to share your views across what we have going. If people want to find out more about you, they can go to the show notes, which go along with the show over at Packet Pushers dot net.
Greg Ferro (00:25:56) – Just go down to the Heavy Strategy podcast and have a look there. There’s lots more information on the Vitria website. That’s Vitria. That’s Vitria just as it sounds. You can then check them out a whole bunch of things. You can find them on Twitter and on LinkedIn. Of course, if you want to find out more information, you’ve heard something on the show that’s interesting. You don’t forget to tell them where you heard it from. Get along to Vitria dot com to find out more about them particularly, go and have a look at their service assurance. They’ve got a bunch of resources. I was actually preparing for the show by checking out their website, where they’ve got some whitepapers and some videos and some various pieces of information that help you look at service assurance transformation to go and check that out. As always, thanks very much for listening to today’s show. Thanks very much to Johna. Thanks very much to Charlotte. Thanks very much to Vitria. Find us on our website at Packet Pushers dot net.
Greg Ferro (00:26:40) – So thanks very much for listening to Heavy Strategy where the questions are more important than the answers, and we’ll look forward to seeing you again in a couple of weeks.
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